"How much of the blame for this should be assigned to Slot is debatable. He didn’t make Ibrahima Konaté air-kick the ball for PSV’s third goal but he does keep selecting the error-prone Frenchman. Similarly, Slot isn’t at fault for Cody Gakpo missing potential headed equalisers in front of the Kop against Eindhoven and Manchester United. He persists in selecting players who are not fully fit which hinders the team’s attacking potential though."
We need to say that at the moment, there are not many options available. If Konate is dropped, do we go with Endo, Gravenberch or play an unfit Gomez who can get injured in 3 seconds anyway.
Up top, Slot played Wirtz there for a couple of matches before he got injured. Again, what other fit and better options does Slot have? I would not start Rio given the backdrop. He is young with a bright future, let's not ruin him.
Agreed. I wanted to paint that section in broad strokes so it didn't go on for ages but yes, there aren't loads of other options. I'd persist with Ekitike over Isak but then I haven't spent £130m of someone else's money on the latter, so it's easy for me to say that.
Etitike is a special player. He seems unaffected by everything around him. Against PSV, who looked the more likely to score in my eyes. Other players are taking the extra touch, he just doesn't care. Isak seems a million miles off, in that he (1) missed pre-season (2) has been injured for around a month. We need to build him slowly.
I thought he should have started against Forest, but he did play over the international break and maybe Slot felt he needed a rest, or the medical team recommended that he should not play. He might not play on Sunday either given his injury agaisnt PSV.
I’m just very wary of heading down the Man U path of multiple managers, with an incompatible mix of players. Hopefully we’ll get to January with some positivity in terms of results/performance, then look to rebalance the squad. But at this point I’m expecting Mick McCarthy to pop saying it can get worse.
I don’t want Slot sacked but then, other than Hodgson, I never do, even when I see plenty of reasons.
I do think his management is the biggest non-Jota factor in our decline. All the other factors from scheduling to bad luck to recruitment to fitness have conspired to thwart the manager, but he has not been able to have us purring for months. We seem to be lost at times.
Slot’s CV is great. His first year with us was astoundingly good. But he needs to show that he can find an answer to our plight. A good manager will do that. And most of us probably still believe he is a very good manager.
What bothers me is that he has never shown much of an idea on how to integrate the new qualities that players brought in the summer possess.
Frimpong he often refers to as Salah's backup. Isak is being played without a proper system to get best out of him. Wirtz keeps getting moved around.
That on top for his lack of consideration of squad players. Jones as right back ahead of Gomez? Chiesa used only in final minutes? Not saying these are better than starters but they are also not being given opportunity.
Same, to an extent with young players like Ngumoha and Nyoni. Thr former keeps getting thrown in when things are desperate. Admittedly, it has often been like that but a run out against Frankfurt might have helped. As for Nyoni, he is still awaiting his Premier League debut. That's not to mention Calvin Ramsay who excelled against Palace but is clearly seen as a last resort.
If we were seeing signs of new players bedding in then I would be way more patient. But we are not. Slot seemingly keeps doing the same things expecting different results. What is that the definition of?
All of this on top of set pieces which Liverpool not only conceede a crazy number of goals from but also are unable to create much out of. Is there even a set-piece coach? Is he given room to work? Do the players listen to him? Or is he simply useless?
Not all of this is Slot's fault. The squad has gaps in depth that should have been adressed in the summer. Instead, money was spent chasing big names. Exactly what we often laughed at others for doing.
In the meantime, the fabled second team is still hasn't materialised. Now, I'm not in favour of telling another fanbase that they have to enjoy being a feeder club. But Liverpool clearly identified this as something that was vital. So why the delay?
So, yes, I feel that Slot would have little complaints if removed. It wouldn't solve Liverpool's problems but it just might solve some of them. Which seems to be way more than Slot is capable of.
I guess judging the success of new players or the manager's ability to integrate new signings in the first half of the season is pointless. And that is under normal circumstances, not this season and the preseason we had. Sadly, Jota passed just before preseason started. Therefore, the month of preparation we had for hte new season was overshadowed but this. How do you think the new players felt walking into that dressing room? Do you think the coaches pushed the players to their limits, like they usually do, to prepare them for the season?
What's wrong about saying that Frimpong can play up top? Liverpool have, for some time now, targetted players that can play in multiple positions. Frimpong is one of them. It seems that you are interpretting Slot's comments as confusion as to where he wants him to play, even though he played mostly as a right back when available.
Isak is being played without a system that suits him? I would be very disappointed if we bought a player that requires a totally new system to succeed. Players come and adopt to our system not the other way round. Isak has missed preseason and then missed a month or so through injury. He is not match fit nor is he on the same wavelength as his team mates. What we need is patience.
Wirtz played centrally and on the wings, positions he played for Leverkusen and the national team. Just like Gakpo was played wide or centrally by Klopp on ocassions. I fail to see what's wrong with that. Again, the idea that playing someone in different positions means a lack of understanding by the manager is wild.
Slot said that Gomez needed an injection just to be on the bench. Why would you play risk him? It's not like Gomez misses one or two matches when he gets injured. He is made of glass. Also, it's not like we played a pure defender on the right hand side in our title winning season. Jones and Szobozlai are closer to Trent than Gomez is. I would much rather have players that can attack when dominating possession than playing ha half fit Gomez that wouldn't last an hour.
You just don't throw youngsters in the starting line up, especially not during periods of crisis. Also, they are still growing and what you want to avoid is what happened to Leoni. Both Rio and Nyoni have a bright future ahead. Throwing them in the pressure cooker will benefit nobody. Calvin Ramsay has missed two or three years of football and can't see what he would add.
"If we were seeing signs of new players bedding in then I would be way more patient." Fabinho played his first game for Liverpool in November, which can be best described as a disaster. Robbo didn't play much in his first half season. Firmino was hopeless in his first year. Gravenberch was not great either. Players take their own time. Some will start well, others need more time. It's not Slot's fault that Wirtz is not yet up to speed.
"Instead, money was spent chasing big names. Exactly what we often laughed at others for doing." So that's it I guess, they are all rubbish? We write them off and move on. We could spend all day naming players that were hopeless in the first 6 months and then improved significanly from there.
I'm convinced that changing managers will have zero impact on performance. Good players don't become bad overnight, and the same applies for managers. We are going through something quite unprecedented. If you have time, have a look at this article about the impact Jota's sad passing could be having on Liverpool's team.
So much to unpack here and not saying that I completely disagree with everything you're saying. But it does feel that you're excusing Slot of an awful lot.
Let's start with the young players. I agree, it is hard to give them minutes when team is losing (although, ironically, that seems to be what Slot does with Ngumoha often in most desperate moments). Yet Liverpool won the league last season with 4 games to play. How many minutes did the likes of Nyoni or Ngumoha play out of those 360? 0. And yes, Ngumoha was still 16 so it would have been premature. But others could have been used more in those minutes and weren't This points to a manager who does not really trust anyone but the core.
As for players having more than one fixed position, agree that this is important. Yet if you look at how Leverkusen (and Holland) played, Frimpong was a wing-back. So is he actually suited at either right back or right wing?
Shaping team around Isak? Again, agree. Klopp tried to do that with Nunez and it backfired. But at least players around him need to be instructed on how to play balls for him. Or else he needs to be told which channels to go in. As it is, he seems to be playing with a game plan in mind whilst rest of team plays another one.
You point at Fabinho & Robertson. But one might just as well look at Szoboszlai and MacAllister who slotted right in.
As for Jota, there was always going to be an impact but what's happening to Liverpool feels more structural than anything else. After all, it could have gone the other way, that players feel an extra motivation to 'do it for Jota' (which is what Mourinho suggested was going to happen). How it is being used feel a lot like a blanket excuse to explain away all issues. I repeat, it will have had an impact but it doesn't explain everything (or most issues).
I don't want this to turn into a you said / I say kind of thread. But my basic point is that Slot is being forgiven for an awful lot. And that I'm losing / lost faith in him being the right choice long term.
Paul, I’m just giving my perspective here — I’m not saying you’re wrong. I think it's good to have people sharing the different views. It's healthy.
In a time when young players are suffering with growing pains which can change their career trajectory (Kaide Gordon, Calvin Ramsay to name a couple), I think it is fair to be as careful as possible with young players. I can't remember if Rio and Nyoni had a full preseason with the full team last season, but I am sure he had his reasons for not playing them. I have no issues with giving them the cup games and some minutes here and there but throwing them in a team under water could kill their confidence.
On Frimpong, I honestly was not too keen on him given he is so small and played as a wing back. I have more doubts about his defending that I have about him playing further forward and replace Salah though. He is fast, likes to dribble and comfortable on the ball. Let's see.
MacAllister and Szobozlai walked into a team that was steady. They started really well, but then faded in the second half of the season. As I said, some players can settle down quicker than others. Virgil sloted in immediately, so did Ali and Etitike. Other players can talk longer, but that doesn't mean they flops. Still early days. I loved Wirtz's performance today even though there was no goals or assists.
On Jota I completely disagree. Winning together for a player that had a serious injury, yeah or for someone who lost a loved one, possibly. But in my opinion you are completely overlooking: (1) The messed up pre-season (which is basically when players work on their new setup as well as fitness (2) Grief, that comes and goes. I've seen people crumble when they lost a loved on, and needed time to get their head right. These players can't get that break. (3) Churn - We lost 3 players from the first XI and the new players that we got to replace them walked into a very difficult situation.
Anyways, that's my opinion. Have faith! He is only the second manager to win the Premier League for us. He can't be that bad?? :)
A fair case? Deluded? I think most paid subscribers here are in favour of keeping Slot, at least from comments I've seen. But I'm all ears if you think otherwise.
But, to play devils advocate, I do think there is an argument that numbers and logic can be misleading when footballers like all of us are led by emotion and this season has been more emotion based than probably any they will ever go through.
In Klopp we had probably the best manager ever for using emotion in a positive way. To get extraordinary performances from players who weren’t necessarily logically and statistically capable of those levels.
Given how the Jota tragedy has come so soon after Klopp, I think it’s possible that this squad of players (at least those that worked under Klopp for a long time), are struggling to cope with a more emotionless manager in Slot at this highly emotive time.
I’m not saying Slots a robot, none of know what he’s like in the dressing room, but he certainly comes across as far more staid and bland than Klopp ever did (no harm in that as Klopp was an extreme outlier).
Maybe right now the players don’t need that. They need a Klopp hug.
Definitely not delusional as I asked the same question of Liverpool fans about replacement. It's a small pool especially when aligning styles with dealing with this particular moment. I feel like the majority of fans straight after a game tend to get too irrational but I think if you ask them 72 hours or so later would be in a better frame of mind to respond
"How much of the blame for this should be assigned to Slot is debatable. He didn’t make Ibrahima Konaté air-kick the ball for PSV’s third goal but he does keep selecting the error-prone Frenchman. Similarly, Slot isn’t at fault for Cody Gakpo missing potential headed equalisers in front of the Kop against Eindhoven and Manchester United. He persists in selecting players who are not fully fit which hinders the team’s attacking potential though."
We need to say that at the moment, there are not many options available. If Konate is dropped, do we go with Endo, Gravenberch or play an unfit Gomez who can get injured in 3 seconds anyway.
Up top, Slot played Wirtz there for a couple of matches before he got injured. Again, what other fit and better options does Slot have? I would not start Rio given the backdrop. He is young with a bright future, let's not ruin him.
Agreed. I wanted to paint that section in broad strokes so it didn't go on for ages but yes, there aren't loads of other options. I'd persist with Ekitike over Isak but then I haven't spent £130m of someone else's money on the latter, so it's easy for me to say that.
Etitike is a special player. He seems unaffected by everything around him. Against PSV, who looked the more likely to score in my eyes. Other players are taking the extra touch, he just doesn't care. Isak seems a million miles off, in that he (1) missed pre-season (2) has been injured for around a month. We need to build him slowly.
I thought he should have started against Forest, but he did play over the international break and maybe Slot felt he needed a rest, or the medical team recommended that he should not play. He might not play on Sunday either given his injury agaisnt PSV.
I’m just very wary of heading down the Man U path of multiple managers, with an incompatible mix of players. Hopefully we’ll get to January with some positivity in terms of results/performance, then look to rebalance the squad. But at this point I’m expecting Mick McCarthy to pop saying it can get worse.
I don’t want Slot sacked but then, other than Hodgson, I never do, even when I see plenty of reasons.
I do think his management is the biggest non-Jota factor in our decline. All the other factors from scheduling to bad luck to recruitment to fitness have conspired to thwart the manager, but he has not been able to have us purring for months. We seem to be lost at times.
Slot’s CV is great. His first year with us was astoundingly good. But he needs to show that he can find an answer to our plight. A good manager will do that. And most of us probably still believe he is a very good manager.
What bothers me is that he has never shown much of an idea on how to integrate the new qualities that players brought in the summer possess.
Frimpong he often refers to as Salah's backup. Isak is being played without a proper system to get best out of him. Wirtz keeps getting moved around.
That on top for his lack of consideration of squad players. Jones as right back ahead of Gomez? Chiesa used only in final minutes? Not saying these are better than starters but they are also not being given opportunity.
Same, to an extent with young players like Ngumoha and Nyoni. Thr former keeps getting thrown in when things are desperate. Admittedly, it has often been like that but a run out against Frankfurt might have helped. As for Nyoni, he is still awaiting his Premier League debut. That's not to mention Calvin Ramsay who excelled against Palace but is clearly seen as a last resort.
If we were seeing signs of new players bedding in then I would be way more patient. But we are not. Slot seemingly keeps doing the same things expecting different results. What is that the definition of?
All of this on top of set pieces which Liverpool not only conceede a crazy number of goals from but also are unable to create much out of. Is there even a set-piece coach? Is he given room to work? Do the players listen to him? Or is he simply useless?
Not all of this is Slot's fault. The squad has gaps in depth that should have been adressed in the summer. Instead, money was spent chasing big names. Exactly what we often laughed at others for doing.
In the meantime, the fabled second team is still hasn't materialised. Now, I'm not in favour of telling another fanbase that they have to enjoy being a feeder club. But Liverpool clearly identified this as something that was vital. So why the delay?
So, yes, I feel that Slot would have little complaints if removed. It wouldn't solve Liverpool's problems but it just might solve some of them. Which seems to be way more than Slot is capable of.
I guess judging the success of new players or the manager's ability to integrate new signings in the first half of the season is pointless. And that is under normal circumstances, not this season and the preseason we had. Sadly, Jota passed just before preseason started. Therefore, the month of preparation we had for hte new season was overshadowed but this. How do you think the new players felt walking into that dressing room? Do you think the coaches pushed the players to their limits, like they usually do, to prepare them for the season?
What's wrong about saying that Frimpong can play up top? Liverpool have, for some time now, targetted players that can play in multiple positions. Frimpong is one of them. It seems that you are interpretting Slot's comments as confusion as to where he wants him to play, even though he played mostly as a right back when available.
Isak is being played without a system that suits him? I would be very disappointed if we bought a player that requires a totally new system to succeed. Players come and adopt to our system not the other way round. Isak has missed preseason and then missed a month or so through injury. He is not match fit nor is he on the same wavelength as his team mates. What we need is patience.
Wirtz played centrally and on the wings, positions he played for Leverkusen and the national team. Just like Gakpo was played wide or centrally by Klopp on ocassions. I fail to see what's wrong with that. Again, the idea that playing someone in different positions means a lack of understanding by the manager is wild.
Slot said that Gomez needed an injection just to be on the bench. Why would you play risk him? It's not like Gomez misses one or two matches when he gets injured. He is made of glass. Also, it's not like we played a pure defender on the right hand side in our title winning season. Jones and Szobozlai are closer to Trent than Gomez is. I would much rather have players that can attack when dominating possession than playing ha half fit Gomez that wouldn't last an hour.
You just don't throw youngsters in the starting line up, especially not during periods of crisis. Also, they are still growing and what you want to avoid is what happened to Leoni. Both Rio and Nyoni have a bright future ahead. Throwing them in the pressure cooker will benefit nobody. Calvin Ramsay has missed two or three years of football and can't see what he would add.
"If we were seeing signs of new players bedding in then I would be way more patient." Fabinho played his first game for Liverpool in November, which can be best described as a disaster. Robbo didn't play much in his first half season. Firmino was hopeless in his first year. Gravenberch was not great either. Players take their own time. Some will start well, others need more time. It's not Slot's fault that Wirtz is not yet up to speed.
"Instead, money was spent chasing big names. Exactly what we often laughed at others for doing." So that's it I guess, they are all rubbish? We write them off and move on. We could spend all day naming players that were hopeless in the first 6 months and then improved significanly from there.
I'm convinced that changing managers will have zero impact on performance. Good players don't become bad overnight, and the same applies for managers. We are going through something quite unprecedented. If you have time, have a look at this article about the impact Jota's sad passing could be having on Liverpool's team.
https://theindestructibleman.com/liverpoolproblems
Also, Kevin Doyle, an ex-player recently spoke about this too:
https://www.facebook.com/RTEsport/videos/i-cant-see-how-this-hasnt-had-an-effect-on-them-kevin-doyle-feels-the-impact-of-/1770821346878875/
Thanks for sharing the Paul Cope article especially. It’s a superb piece of context and writing.
So much to unpack here and not saying that I completely disagree with everything you're saying. But it does feel that you're excusing Slot of an awful lot.
Let's start with the young players. I agree, it is hard to give them minutes when team is losing (although, ironically, that seems to be what Slot does with Ngumoha often in most desperate moments). Yet Liverpool won the league last season with 4 games to play. How many minutes did the likes of Nyoni or Ngumoha play out of those 360? 0. And yes, Ngumoha was still 16 so it would have been premature. But others could have been used more in those minutes and weren't This points to a manager who does not really trust anyone but the core.
As for players having more than one fixed position, agree that this is important. Yet if you look at how Leverkusen (and Holland) played, Frimpong was a wing-back. So is he actually suited at either right back or right wing?
Shaping team around Isak? Again, agree. Klopp tried to do that with Nunez and it backfired. But at least players around him need to be instructed on how to play balls for him. Or else he needs to be told which channels to go in. As it is, he seems to be playing with a game plan in mind whilst rest of team plays another one.
You point at Fabinho & Robertson. But one might just as well look at Szoboszlai and MacAllister who slotted right in.
As for Jota, there was always going to be an impact but what's happening to Liverpool feels more structural than anything else. After all, it could have gone the other way, that players feel an extra motivation to 'do it for Jota' (which is what Mourinho suggested was going to happen). How it is being used feel a lot like a blanket excuse to explain away all issues. I repeat, it will have had an impact but it doesn't explain everything (or most issues).
I don't want this to turn into a you said / I say kind of thread. But my basic point is that Slot is being forgiven for an awful lot. And that I'm losing / lost faith in him being the right choice long term.
Paul, I’m just giving my perspective here — I’m not saying you’re wrong. I think it's good to have people sharing the different views. It's healthy.
In a time when young players are suffering with growing pains which can change their career trajectory (Kaide Gordon, Calvin Ramsay to name a couple), I think it is fair to be as careful as possible with young players. I can't remember if Rio and Nyoni had a full preseason with the full team last season, but I am sure he had his reasons for not playing them. I have no issues with giving them the cup games and some minutes here and there but throwing them in a team under water could kill their confidence.
On Frimpong, I honestly was not too keen on him given he is so small and played as a wing back. I have more doubts about his defending that I have about him playing further forward and replace Salah though. He is fast, likes to dribble and comfortable on the ball. Let's see.
MacAllister and Szobozlai walked into a team that was steady. They started really well, but then faded in the second half of the season. As I said, some players can settle down quicker than others. Virgil sloted in immediately, so did Ali and Etitike. Other players can talk longer, but that doesn't mean they flops. Still early days. I loved Wirtz's performance today even though there was no goals or assists.
On Jota I completely disagree. Winning together for a player that had a serious injury, yeah or for someone who lost a loved one, possibly. But in my opinion you are completely overlooking: (1) The messed up pre-season (which is basically when players work on their new setup as well as fitness (2) Grief, that comes and goes. I've seen people crumble when they lost a loved on, and needed time to get their head right. These players can't get that break. (3) Churn - We lost 3 players from the first XI and the new players that we got to replace them walked into a very difficult situation.
Anyways, that's my opinion. Have faith! He is only the second manager to win the Premier League for us. He can't be that bad?? :)
I wanted to catch up with these comments when I had a proper chance. Lots of good point, cheers folks.
And thanks for sharing the Paul Cope article, really good.
A fair case? Deluded? I think most paid subscribers here are in favour of keeping Slot, at least from comments I've seen. But I'm all ears if you think otherwise.
I’m not Slot out, I will say that straight away.
But, to play devils advocate, I do think there is an argument that numbers and logic can be misleading when footballers like all of us are led by emotion and this season has been more emotion based than probably any they will ever go through.
In Klopp we had probably the best manager ever for using emotion in a positive way. To get extraordinary performances from players who weren’t necessarily logically and statistically capable of those levels.
Given how the Jota tragedy has come so soon after Klopp, I think it’s possible that this squad of players (at least those that worked under Klopp for a long time), are struggling to cope with a more emotionless manager in Slot at this highly emotive time.
I’m not saying Slots a robot, none of know what he’s like in the dressing room, but he certainly comes across as far more staid and bland than Klopp ever did (no harm in that as Klopp was an extreme outlier).
Maybe right now the players don’t need that. They need a Klopp hug.
Definitely not delusional as I asked the same question of Liverpool fans about replacement. It's a small pool especially when aligning styles with dealing with this particular moment. I feel like the majority of fans straight after a game tend to get too irrational but I think if you ask them 72 hours or so later would be in a better frame of mind to respond